Hello blogland...

Hey all! I just wanted to say that I will pick up the front discussion hopefully in the next few days. I keep trying to get to my parents house to get some pictures off of that computer, but haven't had a chance too! Thanks to C-myste for doing a wonderful job about making lines all over dogs!!! For those who haven't gone to CCI website, http://www.cardicommentary.de/ in a while, I encourage you to do so. They keep adding things that I love and a bunch of things on balance, length to height ratio, etc. that will help in this discussion we have going on blogland! It is amazing to me once you measure your dog and really feel where everything is...how many dogs are actually TOO long for their height ratio of 1.8:1. Don Lassila years back created a tool to measure this. I have experimented with it and maybe some of you might want too. Of course measuring is always the best, but this tool sometimes helps go over several dogs at one time and just see how big of difference a too long dog is, a too short, and the correct length to height ratio.

While I am on that theme...I was talking to a Papillon breeder the other day who measures her puppies at different stages through their growth. After many years of doing this she now has the tool to be able to guess if a dog at a young age is going to be proportionate by adulthood. The interesting thing is, most of the dogs that are perfect "slightly longer then tall" (according to the Pap standard), are dogs that some breeders have told her are TOO long. So, in both breeds your eye can be fooled and the only way to help with that is to measure and get the FACTS about which dog is really too long and which is correct.

Always remember that in a Cardigan, the majority of length comes from the ribs NOT the loin. This is one of my pet peeves and is hard for me to live with a long in loin. I would much rather have a too short that is proportionate ratio of the rib versus loin.

Fronts part 3...

Puppies are 4 months old in these pictures. This is just about the time I let the girls go to their new homes. I happened to have boy #2's owner come over and so got his pictures as well. Unfortunately boy #1 is no longer in the pictures. One of these days I am hoping to get a chance to see him again. You might all ask Richelle, as she knows the owners of him and I think has seen him most recently! :-)

Boy #2

Girl #1

Girl #2

Comment on fronts part 1 discussion...

Sorry...too long to add to comments.

Le'o commented on pictures. I wish I had the skills to take better pictures! In fact they are more for me to remember what that puppy looked like and not to use like this in trying to get points across by using only pictures. Thus, getting back to a previous comment made on one of my lists...the best way to learn about all this is to get your hands on dogs!! My house is always open and I will tell you everything I do and don't like about my dogs and could trace about every characteristic back in the pedigree. (For those who don't know I am a pedigree fanatic, literally have 13,000 Cardigan pedigrees, most of them being older dogs, as I don't tend to put new dogs in my database unless I am curious about that dogs pedigree.)

Le'o's last comment on this discussion needs a big THANK YOU! For those who haven't gone and looked at the skeleton picture in the IS (p. 13), please do. Boy #1 actually has a longer forearm, thus making him taller. You have to be careful of this, as longer pasterns are going to make the feet turn out more, not so much a dog taller. So, look again at boy #2. He actually is the one with longer pasterns. It will become apparent when I post the older pictures. On the side shot you can see it much better. That arch in his foot is not present as in the other three puppies. When I evaluate puppies at this age, I don't want to see ANY turn out, none. Boy #2 is at this age slightly turned out. I did not like this feature but since he was my best male (that wasn't a mismark) I grew him up.

This brings me to another point. Some of us breeders have different ideas on where the front should turn out. I was taught that it is in the wrap, not the foot. So, it is a big pet peeve of mine when I see front foot turn out from the pastern not from the wrap. Thus why some of my dogs tend to be straighter then some people like and I will forgive a bit wider front before I forgive a front that has a long pastern and turns easty westy. In person is much better trying to explain this one.

And since I am going off subject a bit...Australian lines grow a slight bit different. You have to wait for them to mature and I have had many puppies go really wide at stages. So, a puppy that looks similar to one of these puppies we are looking at, may not grow exactly the same. Different lines mature differently...breeding is always interesting, isn't it?!!!!

Of course all IMO.

Fronts (part 2a)...

Here are side shots of the puppies around this age as well.

Boy #1

Boy #2

Girl #1

Unfortunately I don't have a good enough side shot of Girl #2 around this time.

Fronts (part 2)...

Typically after 7-9 weeks of age, I don't really look at puppies. They go through odd stages, some worse then others. This was about the time this litter started leaving for new homes, so some pictures are a bit scattered on ages. But, here are the four puppies between the ages 10-12 weeks.

Boy #1 - about the only front shot I have of him before he left for his new home.

Boy #2

Girl #1 above is around 10 weeks, below is around 12 weeks.

Girl #2

Fronts (part 1a)

One thing I have an issue about evaluating fronts from the front, is that I like to as part of the evaluation look at the whole front, that means where it is placed, how it falls underneath the body, and how the head and neck fit into the body, so part of that is seeing puppies from the side as well. So, I am including the side shots of these puppies which may help some of you on the first puppy especially.

Boy #1 (is he still long in pastern from this angle? Does he have enough front prosternum at this age? Or is he just simply taller on leg?)



Boy #2


Girl # 1 (yes, everyone will know who this is.)

Girl #2 (as noted from someone, this puppy never takes the best photos, even as an adult we still have trouble, so it is harder to evaluate this puppy.)

So, now seeing the side shots and how the fronts are set, would you stick to your comments earlier on the front view?

Fronts (part 1)...

For my front discussion...I wanted to try and educate what I look for in a Cardigan puppies front versus how they turn out as adults. Now I have pictures after pictures I could highlight this with, but thought I might take one of my more recent litters that are just growing up and in the show ring now.

Here are four puppies, my top puppies in this litter, and four different front assemblies at 7 weeks of age. For the purpose of this discussion I am giving them numbers not names...but you will know who they are if you go on my website. FYI, the first puppy was sold as a pet due to his markings, but wanted to include him as without the bad markings, he would be my top male.

Puppy boy #1

Puppy Girl #1

Puppy boy #2

Puppy girl #2

So, of these four puppies. Which front do you like best? Why do you like it? Which one would you rate first through fourth and why?

More to come...